ioerror: Japan and learning Japanese

Jacob Appelbaum (

ioerror) wrote,
@ 2008-05-01 17:05:00

Japan and learning Japanese
I've decided that this is the year that I will go to Japan. This is a big deal for me. I've wanted to do this for a very very long time. I have lots of things in my head and I'm sure I won't be able to accomplish all of them.

I will visit with some of my friends who live in Japan. I'm going to see about staying long enough to study Aikido at the first Aikido dojo. I want to try to meet and possibly photograph my very favorite Japanese artists. I also want to start studying Japanese in both written and verbal form far before I even land.

This is the obligatory post stating that this has begun.

If you have advice about Japan, Japanese culture, learning to read and write Japanese (such as things that are useful, schools you'd suggest, etc) or anything Japan or Asian culture related (even specific history books) - Please let me know!

(Post a new comment)

	akashayi 2008-05-02 12:31 am UTC (link)
	How much Japanese do you know already, where are you starting from? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ioerror 2008-05-02 01:19 am UTC (link)
	Absolutely none beyond what it takes to invite someone to practice in Aikido and to order some sushi after we're finished. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

akashayi
2008-05-02 01:30 am UTC (link)

I think the Rosetta Stone software is probably extremely good for someone starting from nothing. I played around with it last year and didn't get much out of it, but it has good combination of aural/visual learning. I like it's premise.

There's several podcasts that are good materials too, I'm fond of a particular Japanese bedtime story podcast.

I have several shelves and gigs of Japanese materials from which I can lend (if I haven't lent out all my beginner stuff already) you whatever you want if I see you this weekend maybe?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ioerror 2008-05-02 01:32 am UTC (link)
	We should talk about it this weekend. You'll be at MF Saturday night, right? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	akashayi 2008-05-02 01:34 am UTC (link)
	Yes, I'll be there. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ioerror 2008-05-02 01:44 am UTC (link)
	Lets plan to meet up then! You'll have a blast with 2piR! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	akashayi 2008-05-02 01:49 am UTC (link)
	I saw that on the list, it's actually something I really excited about/wanted to play with :D (Reply to this) (Parent)

	You're gunna be huge there :) cryptomail 2008-05-02 12:33 am UTC (link)
	Just had to :) Man, that is gunna rule so hard. You'll have so much fun. Get to know hiragana and katakana. Kanji = lost cause for the most part hahah :) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: You're gunna be huge there :) bdu 2008-05-02 12:37 am UTC (link)
	Though Kanji is all you'll find on street signs and the like, once you get out of the tourist areas. If you've got the drive to learn it, I'm sure you'll find it more useful in practice than the kana. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: You're gunna be huge there :) akashayi 2008-05-02 12:54 am UTC (link)
	Sadly, it's not far from the truth. I have yet to see a really big japanese ----. I also think Kanji makes the entire language a bit easier to read, parses the sentences and the recognition of meaning (and possibly the pleasant lack of subvocalization) is immediate once learned. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: You're gunna be huge there :)

cryptomail
2008-05-02 01:00 am UTC (link)

Well, that was from my own experiences WRT Kanji :)
While studying, I did put a lot of practice into it, and I was kinda joking...but yeah...it's fun and interesting to say the least coming from a Roman Language perspective :)
I'd say that since I'm an incurable optimist, it's *possible* to learn Kanji written/read, but it will take effort, perhaps more so than Hiragana/Katakana :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: You're gunna be huge there :) akashayi 2008-05-02 01:44 am UTC (link)
	It does take a lot of effort. And blood, sweat, tears, time and usually money. -_- Still makes Japanese easier to read :D (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: You're gunna be huge there :)

artkiver
2008-05-02 06:49 pm UTC (link)

It doesn't actually make Japanese easier to read, and please don't take offense, but you're probably only saying that because you're habituated to it. If you're like anyone else I've ever met, I'm sure you spent quite a bit of effort to get to the point where you find Kanji to be an asset to your reading rather than a hurdle.

There are reasons for that: linguistically speaking, Chinese hanji was basically the worst possible orthographical system the Japanese ever could have picked for their spoken language. Chinese is SVO and highly tonal, there's also a 1:1 correspondence between a word's sound and a character representing that meaning. Japan already has a superfluous amount of homonyms, is SOV (though that's less important), and adding an onyomi and kunyomi means that you take the 1:1 word/reading of Chinese and you at least double it.

In practice though, as you know double the readings for the characters is a best case and it's often much worse, commonly five or -more- readings for a given character exist. Popular characters ended up having more readings because they were borrowed from different regions and time periods. As a result each time the people coming back to Japan who had studied Chinese would add some new onyomi, making Japanese beyond needlessly complex - it's stupidly complex. Like, NATURAL LANGUAGE ISN'T THAT COMPLEX, THEIR WRITING SYSTEM BROKE IT. Seriously, they would borrow Chinese onyomi readings from different 'dialects' of Chinese, and thus complicate the readings in such a way that even a Cantonese or Mandarin speaker would be unfamiliar with because most people stick to their dialect, and if they learn another one, they realize it's not mutually intelligible and wouldn't dream of mixing the two, because THAT'S CONFUSING! Sadly, Japanese did all that and more.

Add to that clusterfuck the fact that Japanese is also a heavy postpositional modifier oriented language and so even with a hanji/kanji character you still end up tacking on a shitload of hiragana to imply tense, positive/negative/etc, when often the kanji character only signifies one phoneme despite being like 10+ strokes and you have pretty much the least efficient writing system ever.

There was a reason why the Japanese developed hiragana and katakana as simplied forms about ten centuries ago; the clinging to hanji is really bad for the language and other altaic languages (e.g. Korean) which also once used Chinese orthography have dropped it for pure syllabaries (e.g. hangul).

Seriously, you could learn hiragana, katakana, hangul and have an easier time reading two languages than trying and failing for years to make sense of Kanji. Even many native Japanese have trouble with it (hence the furigana commonly listed often times even on things that are part of the jouyou kanji).

Anyway, when you're learning a language, it's actually more valuable to speak and understand spoken word, in which case you want to be able to differentiate homonyms based on context, not on written word to help you.

I think for Jake as a beginner, it's much wiser to start with listening comprehension and speaking. When it comes to writing systems, at most just start with the syllabary writing systems merely as a way to become familiar with the phonetic elements of Japanese. Reading and writing is something that can happen much later (and heck, people can all read and write the syllabaries if he's in a pinch and native speakers can distinguish from context without the 'help' of the kanji which can needlessly be daunting to a beginner). Post WWII all public signs are required to have English transliterations as well, so getting around train stations and whatnot isn't too difficult, but not being able to speak and comprehend what people are saying is much more dire than being unable to read a newspaper.

I think people place too much value on a literacy when natural language existed long before most writing systems (even Japanese). Even today, despite Japan's preposterously high literacy rate, there are still illiterate native speakers who can converse better than any foreigner will ever be able.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: You're gunna be huge there :)

akashayi
2008-05-02 09:46 pm UTC (link)

I'm not offended at all, actually.

I don't think Beginners with a limited period of time should jump straight into learning kanji except maybe the ones that will get them by on the streets in Japan, being able to communicate with people is important.

I personally find it easier with study to read sentences when it's a mix of phonetic characters and kanji, because it divides up the sentence(there being no spaces between words) and meaning comes much faster to me. I subvocalize very little, so if I just need information, this works for me.

And yes, Japanese, like most cultures around there were heavily influenced by the middle kingdom. I think Korea had the right idea when Hangul was created. It's beautiful, natural, and there is reasoning behind the shape and combination of characters and suits korean perfectly instead of trying to bend their language around "On" readings of a language that is so far detached from their own.

All that being said, I think Kanji is beautiful. It's aesthetically pleasing. I adore the complexity and all the weird connections and logic behind assignments to meaning.

There. Dunno if any of that reasoning makes sense right now.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	bifrosty2k 2008-05-02 12:50 am UTC (link)
	Hrm, I guess perhaps more Hentai? I'm always down to eat more japanese food :) (Reply to this)

	tjcrowley 2008-05-02 12:56 am UTC (link)
	I have the Rosetta Stone software if you want it. I am really impressed by it -- I learned Chinese well enough in a few weeks of using it to understand a lot of stuff being said in Chinatown around me. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ioerror 2008-05-02 01:20 am UTC (link)
	I'll give it a try. (Reply to this) (Parent)

ravyn440
2008-05-02 01:57 am UTC (link)

If you get to the point where you'd like to practice your written Japanese with someone who is tired of watching his language skill trickle out of the brain on a daily basis, drop me a note. I need the practice.

If you're going to go to Japan this year, and you can't go within the next month, I would wait until September or October. Once spring ends, you've got tsuyu (the rainy season) for a little while, and then it turns into summer, which is just hot and humid and just generally unpleasant (unless, of course, you like that sort of thing). I still have the goal of going over there during hanami season, but I missed it this year.

If you do try out Rosetta Stone and you like it, please let me know. I might go track down a copy and use it as a refresher.

One last thing... as you start to learn, start immediately with hiragana and katakana - do not use any materials that have you beginning with romaji - it's a waste of time.

Ganbatte ne!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

akashayi
2008-05-02 02:26 am UTC (link)

If you do try out Rosetta Stone and you like it, please let me know. I might go track down a copy and use it as a refresher.
I don't know who you are but I have a cracked copy of Rosetta and can send you the iso files.

One last thing... as you start to learn, start immediately with hiragana and katakana - do not use any materials that have you beginning with romaji - it's a waste of time.
This is absolutely true.

Keeping language skills up without being able to use them on a daily basis is hard work. If you're not growing, you're dying -_-

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

ravyn440
2008-05-02 02:44 am UTC (link)

I don't know who you are but I have a cracked copy of Rosetta and can send you the iso files.

That would be very cool. If you want to email me - take my LJ name, drop the numbers, and add @deadbunny.com - maybe I have something useful to trade in return.

Keeping language skills up without being able to use them on a daily basis is hard work. If you're not growing, you're dying -_-

Then I think I'm approaching comatose. =/

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	akashayi 2008-05-02 09:55 pm UTC (link)
	My biggest worry is that, given that I only get to speak with people I'm close to these days, I'm afraid I might find it hard to slip into a polite way of speaking when/if it becomes necessary >.< Gotta watch more podcasts/news broadcasts. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	thefreak 2008-05-02 08:29 am UTC (link)
	I also am unknown to you. But...Rosetta Stone, ちょうだい！ :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	akashayi 2008-05-02 09:52 pm UTC (link)
	いい、よ！ finding a way to host the files right now, it's nearly two gigs for the five iso files. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	thefreak 2008-05-02 09:58 pm UTC (link)
	Dizzamn! (Reply to this) (Parent)

mattholland
2008-05-02 04:06 am UTC (link)

you can learn hiragana and katakana in a month or less. kanji...well there's over 2000 of them in regular use. and most of them have multiple meanings and pronunciations. in short, unless you're serious about studying to fluency i wouldn't bother learning more than the first hundred or so presented in beginning texts. if you really want to get an intuitive feel for kanji look up "remembering the kanji" by james heisig, and use the site http://kanji.koohii.com along with it. though that too is an enormous time commitment.

if you want to take a class you've got either ccsf or soko gakuen in japantown.

http://alljapaneseallthetime.com is an interesting site that you may find helpful.

be advised that japanese is fucking hard. i've been at it for over four years now and i still suck, but, you're smart so maybe you'll pick it right up.

if you're around in the summer i'd be happy to help you with studying, though sf doesn't have a shortage of native speakers that you could language exchange with (search craigslist)

(Reply to this)

icis_machine
2008-05-02 04:14 am UTC (link)

most language learning systems have you learning hiragana first. however, any western words are in katakana, so i would advise trying ot learn that first. it can be much more helpful in the long run.

the next thing is that if you have a nintendo ds, once you arrive, get the japanese to english dictionary for the ds. it is intended to learn english but it is cheap and easy way to learn more japanese in a cute package. my friend lives by it out there.

there are also some cultural buzz word books that might help with bad words and understand cultural practices ("25 key words in japan", i think it is called).

good luck. it is just starting to get warm there.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

mattholland
2008-05-03 10:12 am UTC (link)

i think you might be talking about そのまま楽引き辞典. i can't praise this thing enough. looking up unknown kanji's is super fast since you just write them as you see them. the character recognition is really good. you do need to know how the way kanjis break down into stroke orders but that's not too bad to learn. as a demo i like to draw a seemingly complicated kanji like 警 which has 17 (if i counted them right) strokes, but can be scribbled onto the screen in a completely illegible manner and still be recognized as long as the stroke count and order were correct.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	icis_machine 2008-05-03 05:08 pm UTC (link)
	yes, that's the one. (Reply to this) (Parent)

rezendi
2008-05-02 04:49 am UTC (link)

Learning Japanese, especially written Japanese, is hard. A professional-diplomat friend of mine had to devote six pretty much unbroken months. He compared it to building a bridge by throwing stones into a river; for a long time you make no apparent progress at all.

(After his stint in Tokyo he moved to Beijing. He reports that Japanese is at least easier than Chinese.)

Make sure you buy a JR Rail pass before you arrive. Handy both in Tokyo (esp. on the Yamanote line that circumnavigates the city centre) and for all excursions outside.

My favourite experiences from my long-ago visit:
- A night in a coffin hotel
- A day exploring Zen gardens in Kyoto
- Himeji castle
- Aimless wandering in Shibuya

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	cadmus 2008-05-02 04:55 am UTC (link)
	I second the rail pass. You can't get them there, only from outside the country. :-) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	thefreak 2008-05-02 08:32 am UTC (link)
	If all else fails, I can forge you a rail pass. I do it every time I go there. Just ask someone for their old one and it's a snap. (Reply to this) (Parent)

icis_machine
2008-05-03 03:44 am UTC (link)

the pass may not be worth it unless you take a shinkansen at least twice (mine cost $240USD almost 3 years ago). there are daily JR passes available for 800 yen (if memory serves), but it still may not pay off if you use several different systems. for 2000 yen you can get a SUICA card that can alivate some of those problems.

don't forget the tokyo street atlas. it is priceless even if it makes you look touristy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	cameo 2008-05-02 05:35 am UTC (link)
	When I lived in Japan, I picked up japanese really quickly. If you need help with cheap places to stay, people that know the martial arts scene in japan, or places to go - I can help! We can chat about it sometime next week, if you wish! (Reply to this)

	octalpussy 2008-05-02 05:54 am UTC (link)
	Awesome! We just got done plotting our NYE party in Tokyo! Also, I think I will probably be emailing you this weekend or something. (Reply to this)

thewronghands
2008-05-02 07:45 am UTC (link)

Find people to practice conversation with, and do it as much as you can. I've been studying on and off for several years, and my level of fluency at any given point is directly correllated with how much I'm talking to people. (It's why I joined the tea society, as well as taking a martial arts class.) Don't fall back to English if you can possibly help it; make yourself keep trying. The more you use it, the more you'll remember it, and the better you'll do once you actually get there.

If possible, practice with native speakers rather than other Americans trying to learn... this will help you avoid things like gendered language mixups or politeness errors that other new speakers also don't realize are wrong. (These are also the sorts of things that are particularly embarassing to get wrong in person.) However, realize that native speakers may be too polite to tell you that you've made an error. One of my exes, I had to date for three years before she felt that we were close enough for her to correct my Japanese.

Don't just read -- correspond. Attaining a rough comprehension is a lot easier than exchanges in a language, but you'll learn much more if you have to compose as well as understand.

Fortunately, you have Japantown nearby -- that'll help a lot. If we happen to be in the same geographic area, I'd be happy to converse with you, but I don't know how likely that will be in the near future.

Ask

artkiver; he's more fluent than I am, and probably has tips.

(Reply to this)

lynnticular
2008-05-02 07:57 am UTC (link)

I speak Japanese fluently, so if you ever have a question, you can ask me! :) Definitely find people to practice with, that's key, also watching movies or something so you can hear the language as much as possible is useful. Most people in Japan speak English, so if you really need help, they're very obliging, though I understand wanting to know the language anyway. :) Tips: There are some kanji that are more important than others, especially for traveling purposes. I would search out those words first to recognize them, and then work on trying to write them. As for the rest of the language, it's phonetic, and so is easier to learn. Most train stations and such have English on them as well as Japanese, which can help you learn words to recognize! :D がんばって！

(Reply to this)

Freak Time!

thefreak
2008-05-02 08:39 am UTC (link)

Two questions: Are you planning to travel around outside of places like Tokyo/Osaka/Kyoto? Cause the majority of Japan is completely different than these places...English isn't always so prevalent.

Also, when you say the first Aikidojo, are you referring to Hombu Dojo in Tokyo (run by Ueshiba's grandson), or the original dojo in Iwama, Ibaraki (my old stomping grounds)? They are probably still feuding over who is the real HQ for Aikido. :)

Also, go download this: http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/

It's great for practicing on the internet. If you see a word, just hover your mouse over it and you'll get extensive translations for that word or related phrases.

Taking a class also helps. Kar3n took a semester and when we hit the homeland for the honeymoon, she was rockin' the basic Nihongo.

(Reply to this)

	skx 2008-05-02 09:58 am UTC (link)
	Culture? People are friendly, but when I was there I'd walk around for days before I saw somebody give me eye-contact in the street. Weird how noticeable and bad that feels ... (Reply to this)

agentphoenix
2008-05-02 03:44 pm UTC (link)

before you go to Japan, learn at least how to understand directions. :-D there are no numbers on buildings...and the way to show you how to get there is by saying it's near something else. mind you, this is Tokyo i'm talking about. good luck with the Japanese, i studied it for a semester, and although pronunciation is easier than in Chinese, it is a much more difficult language. the grammatical structure is more like Hungarian or Latin. it's fun, but get yourself a good teacher. it's taught in Japantown...i would recommend learning it there than any other place.

cultural notes: do not eat or drink anything you buy whilst still in public. public eating (like walking down the street drinking a soda) is frowned upon. be prepared to bring LOTS of gifts...for everyone you meet, stay with, etc.

i think you'll probably have more fun outside of Tokyo...

i'll let you know if other things come to me.

(Reply to this)

	Learn Japanese podcast logic4free 2008-05-04 11:32 pm UTC (link)
	I've been listening a little bit to http://www.japanesepod101.com/ , lots of free stuff to listen to there. Mainly focused on conversation. (Reply to this)

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